The Marin Letter (1730)

This is a letter written by Pierre-Paul Marin (1692-1753) to the governor of New France, Charles, marquis de Beauharnois (1670-1749). It was written on May 11, 1730, while Marin was in the territory of the Menominee. It attempts to give a purely factual account (from a French point of view) of the events related in the Hocąk story "The Fox-Hocąk War."

Hocąk Version of the Events Described in Marin's Letter

(88) On my arrival at the Village of the folles avoines [Menominee] I was very well received with some Calumets, according to custom, by the old men who Had remained in the fort. They said to me: "My father, we will let you rest today and tomorrow we will speak to you."

On the following day they began by Spreading a mat, and, by a Collar, they spoke to me as follows: "Here is a mat, my father, on which we beg you to rest and to be pleased to kindle your fire here and never Extinguish it; for we are resolved to Listen attentively to your word, which is that of our father Onontiō, who no doubt has pity on us since he has Sent you to assist us. Have pity, therefore, my father (they said to me) and look upon us as the faithful and true children of Onontiō. We need your help in the sad position in which we are placed." This I granted them, assuring them of your protection, Monsieur, and of mine if necessary.

Afterwards, I attentively considered the best place I could find whereat to build a fort capable of protecting all my people and myself against the Enemy's assaults in case of attack, according to the orders which you, Monsieur, did me the honor of giving me, at my departure. But, as I found nothing more suitable than the fort already built, I decided to establish myself in it, after repairing it, both by replacing the portions of the palisade that were missing, and by roofing the French houses with Bark instead of with the straw that covered them, in order to Avert the danger of fire. I also had the ground cleared of (89) trees and everything in the Vicinity removed that might give any advantage to an assailant.

On the tenth of September, the puants [Winnebago = Hocągara] returned from a Hunting expedition, and at once came to tell me that they would again repeat the same promise they had already given to their father Onontiō last year, and that they would add a second by a few words, which they explained to me at the time by three Slaves, saying: "We all come here, my father, to make thee understand clearly that the blow we have just struck at the renard [Fox tribe] in concert with our brothers, the folles avoines and Outaouoys [Ottawa], is a convincing proof of the fidelity we have promised our father Onontiō, as his submissive and obedient children, and that nothing can change our Hearts."

They also presented me at the same time, with three other Slaves whom they told me they had intended to give Monsieur The Commandant of Missilimakinac, as one of their nearest fathers, that he might have pity on them in the pressing need in which they were of all things in general and, in particular, of powder, Bullets, hatchets, guns, and knives; but, inasmuch as they saw in me a man Sent by Onontiō, their true father, to govern and assist them in their necessities, they begged me to accept the slaves from them and at the same time to Consider the state of Extreme penury in which they Were, being in need of everything. To this I replied at once by giving them what they most needed.

Some days afterwards, the puants went to la Baye with their families to live, and Left them there while they proceeded to find out whether the renard was not in their country, and to ascertain whether he had ravaged the Corn-fields. They found, that everything was in almost the same Condition that they had left It, and that the Renard had withdrawn. This Induced them to come back to la Baye for their families, and return to Settle in their own country. (90) They camped on a small island at a distance of About an arpent or two from the island on which their former Village Was situated, being quite confident that the Renards Had gone away permanently. But they were not left long in peace, for the Renards came to infest not only them and all their families, but also a number of Saquis [Sauks] who Were with Them, and Camped in two different forts below the island on which their former fort Stood, so as to attack them on all sides, Being at a distance of an arpent and a half at the most, and the River being easy to cross as the Water was only knee-deep. They began first by attacking two puants, who were fishing with spears. These they killed, and one of their own people was killed also. They fought thus for nearly forty eight hours without speaking to one another. At the end of that time the Puants, being the first to begin the address, called out to the Renards: "What does this mean, my brothers? We are Surprised that you should attacks us today without saying anything. Know you not that we are always your true brothers, since we have always been so from The olden times of our forefathers. It is true (they added) that you have to reproach us with having dipped our hands in your blood, by Delivering two of your people to the Outaouoys and folles avoines. But If we did, it was because we were forced to do so, and could not help it. Nevertheless, we are now filled with regret at having done so, and we will show you that we are still prepared to give you proofs of the Sincere affection we have always had for you. We have here four folles Avoines whom we will deliver into your hands to do with as you will in payment and compensation for the loss of the two [Renards] just mentioned." They at once led out two of them bound; and, after cutting off the heads of the two others, they immediately carried these to them, begging the Renards to cease to be angry with them and to have pity on them. (91) But the Renards replied that they had not yet had time to taste the broth they had given them to drink; that there was not enough to satisfy so many as they Were; that they must also deliver into their hands the four of their number who had been cowardly enough to give up their people to the Outaouoys and folles Avoines, their Enemies; and that when they had drunk the broth, they would see Whether they were sufficiently satiated to be able to grant their request. This proposal seemed too great an insult to the Puants to allow of their consenting to it; they therefore prepared to sustain the siege and defend themselves as well as they could, having food for a couple of months.

During the interval of the Fight that lasted nearly a month and a half, the folles avoines became uneasy at not seeing the Puants walking about in their mist as usual, or any of their people who Were with Them, and six of their number went within sights of the Renards' forts which they saw distinctly, to find out whether their tribesmen Were with the Puants. Being unable to enter their fort without risking their lives, they retraced their steps, and hastened to give information of what was going on to their people, who, at the time, Were at a distance of a short day's journey from my fort; they were pursued by the Renards who Had perceived that they were on the march but who were unable to overtake them.

The folles avoines at once deputed one of their chiefs, to beg me to be good enough to have pity on Them, by placing myself at their head to extricate their people from the perilous position in which they were placed, and, at the same time, to bring aid to the puants who, judging from they had seen, were greatly in need of it, as they were almost at the mercy of the Renards, unless succor were brought them. I replied that as I had been sent by you, Monsieur, to be a father to them in their needs, I Was ready to help them in war as well as in other things, being convinced that this could but be agreeable to you, and that I would march alone at their head because I could not make up my mind to leave my fort undefended, and that I had to leave the French who Were with me to guard it. Two or three days afterwards, (92) they came and begged me to counsel them as to what they should do: whether to leave their women and Children in a sort at the place where they Were, or to bring them out on the Lake shore. I told them that I Left the decision to them and had no advice to give them. Thereupon they finally decided to bring them to my fort, after considering for a long while Whether they would have sufficient time to do so, fearing that the delay would be fatal to the Undertaking they had in view of going to free their people from the hands of the Renard. In fact they took a very long time to start, and afterwards they again begged me to remember the promise I had given them to march at their head; and to be good enough to allow their women and Children to remain in my fort under the protection and guidance of the Frenchmen whom I should Leave there and of some of their old men who Were not in a Condition for such a march. I answered that, as I had given my word, I Was not desirous of withdrawing it, provided that they would always do what I wished, and await my counsels; I also told them that, after seeing the Renard and doing what I Wished to do, I would go no further, but would return. When matters had been thus arranged and as I was about to start, being the only Frenchman with them, my people who Were with me, came and begged me, as a favor, to allow them to accompany me, saying that they would be delighted to benefit by the advantages they already promised themselves to gain with me over that cursed nation of the Renard, and that they positively could not reconcile themselves to the idea of seeing me start on such an Undertaking without Freely and heartily offering me the services they owed to their prince, and that they would even be in despair were I to refuse to accept them. Although I had intended to not Expose to danger, a single one besides myself, I could not refuse young men who seemed full of Spirit and Courage, and I chose Five of them to accompany me, representing to the four others that I could not avoid showing the savages the interest I took in them, by placing their women and Children under their guard during the Campaign.

(93) We set out therefore, on the following day, to the number of forty persons in all, taking all the precautions I considered necessary to prevent our approach from being discovered. On the sixth day of our journey, the 19th of March, we reached Coulimy, where we had to make a portage, a league and a half from the fort of the Puants, whither we proceeded somewhat slowly to avoid being discovered by anyone as I feared that, If the Puants were the first to perceive us, they might make some demonstration that would bring on an attack by the Renards before we Had time to place ourselves in slight entrenchments; neither did I wish to throw myself rashly into their fort, without informing them of the reason that had Induced me to come to them, because they would be sure to distrust us owing to their having delivered to the Renards the brothers of those for whom I Was prepared to fight — although they were not aware of this nor was I myself aware of the other fact. Moreover, I was unable to reach them without running a risk, because I could not do otherwise than land at one of the Places on the island where the Water was deepest, The Renards Being camped where it was shallowest, and (as I have already had the honor of informing you, Monsieur) watching The fort of the Puants in such a manner as to allow nobody to approach it without opposition. I therefore decided to have a slight entrenchment thrown up at once, forbidding our people to use their axes to cut wood lest they should Be Heard by the Renards, who Were not very Far from us, while I Went a little to one side to observe their movements. As we Had arrived About ten o'clock in the morning, I resolved to wait until night to inform the Puants that we Had come to their assistance and to ask them to Send some Canoes in case we should need them. But our people, not heeding my orders, struck some blows with their axes which were Heard by the Renards, who issued from the two forts in which they Were posted, and attacked us with some violence before we had time to finish our small redoubt. (94) When I saw them approaching I called out to our people to take courage and show the Renards what we Were, and we attacked Them without Mercy, Forcing them back to the gates of their fort. When they reached there, they stopped fighting for a while, and called out to me that they were surprised that I should, with such Ardor, take the part of a nation who, not Long before, had Delivered four of my Children to them to be put into the Kettle to replace those of their own people whom they had Delivered to the Outaouoys and folles Avoines The previous Summer. When the latter Heard this they tried at Once to Induce me to avenge the treachery of which the Puants had been guilty towards them by committing So foul a deed, without having Been forced to do so, after they themselves had United with the Outaouoys and folle avoines to eat the Renards. But, foreseeing the regrettable consequences that might result from such a Step, I said to them: "My Children, I admit that the treachery of the puants towards you fully deserves your resentment, and that you cannot too deeply regret your brothers. You must however remember that I consented to place myself at your head to come and kill Renards and not Puants. Although I do not tell you what is in my mind for the present, let us continue what we have begun and be very careful not to let the Puants find out your hatred of Them if you do not wish to excite distrust in them which may take away the courage they need to defend Themselves properly. On the contrary I Exhort you to put on a good Face before them and to Encourage them to sustain what they have already so Vigorously kept up until our arrival; for If, at first, we behave otherwise towards them, the Renards will not fail to take advantage of such a division to win from us all the advantages we might give them on this occasion." It was not long before we Were attacked a second time by the Renards, who endeavored to surround, and capture us, and when night came, they Deputed two of their number to speak to me in order to ascertain our position in our slight entrenchment. They stated, as a pretext, that they wanted the night for rest that both sides might sleep; that, in order to do so without distrust, one of them would sleep with us while one of our people should go and sleep with the other at their fort (95) They thought thereby to banish all suspicion from our minds. I Was, however, informed by a fol Avoine who had Overheard what one of the Renards had said to his Comrade, respecting the steps they were to take during our sleep, telling him that as soon as he found us Asleep, he would slip away and warn the Renards, who would at once attack us. Being aware of their design, I took no steps and told them at once to withdraw and that before the night was half over, they would find me nearer their fort than they expected; that I Was in no humor to receive their compliments, after they had insulted me as they had done on my arrival. It is true that those two Renards had chosen that time solely for the purpose of watching what we might be doing during the night, to Prevent us from working at our entrenchment. We Had receive a reinforcement of ten Puant warriors who Had crossed over to our assistance when they saw that we had come to defend them. Meanwhile, the Renards had already asked beforehand to speak to me and begged me to Hear them before going further, and the folles avoines, Being anxious to know their thoughts, urged me to Hear them for a moment. But I replied: "What do you wish to Hear from those evil men? They are capable only of betraying you and me also. Therefore I refuse positively to Listen to their evil speeches." The folles avoines persisted in asking me to Listen to them since they addressed themselves to me only, and finally I consented, making Them, understand that If I did so, it was solely through regard for Them, and because they urged me to it. Then the Renards spoke to me as follows: "We Know that thou hast come here solely to protect those dogs whom, without thee, we should have eaten. They are cowards who have already sacrificed us not long ago to our own Enemies, and who have outraged thee thyself in the tenderest spot thou couldst expect, by delivering into our hands thine own Children that we might drink their blood. And we are surprised that thou shouldst display such Ardor, on behalf of people who are so little worthy of thy protection." I replied at once that I had resolved to help the Puants, solely because I still believed them to be true children of onontio, their father, (96) to whom they had promised fealty last year and that, having Been warned of the Renards' wickedness and treachery on all occasions, I could not rely on their word, adding that I could not Trust them, after all the treacherous acts of which they had been guilty Towards the French whom they had betrayed on several occasions; that If it Were true that the puants had acted as they (the Renards) said they had, I would Avenge myself on Them Without requiring the Assistance of anybody, but that, before doing so, I wished to ascertain the whole Truth. While I was holding this Conversation with them, they were posting two parties in Ambush About an arpent from my position. I noticed this at the time, and as I already had some Wounded, I was somewhat at a Loss as to how I should save them because it was impossible for them to walk. I nevertheless ventured to Attempt to reach the fort of the Puants who, in the darkness, had Sent me three canoes to facilitate the removal of my Wounded. This was effected with the greatest precautions; I myself went to beguile the Renards with many threats, while my Wounded were Embarked in the canoes. That night, Being the second from the day on which I arrived, I also gained the fort of the Puants; shortly afterwards, in spite of all the shots fired at us by the Renards while crossing, against which we protected ourselves quite easily in the darkness of a night that seemed given to us to favor our retreat.

On entering the fort, I found only people mourning and ashamed at the Sight of their Deliverers. I therefore hastened to call out in the loud voice, "What are you thinking of, you puants who are our brothers, and why are you in Such deep sorrow, at a time when you should rejoice at Seeing one of the elders of Onontiō, your father, coming to your assistance, for it is true that I Am here solely for the purpose of saving your lives and of delivering you from the hands of those evil men who seem anxious to destroy you without sparing a single one of you? Arm yourselves, therefore, with joy and courage and act like those whom I have brought with me and who are your brothers, thinking of nothing but defending your Lives and those of your wives and Children and of all your allies."

(97) A fol Avoine, an Old man, and a woman who Were then the only members of that tribe amongst the Puants, were the first to present themselves to me and they told me and their people, that they begged me to take revenge while it was in my power on the Puants, whom they considered their chief Enemies, after the cowardly deed they had committed by Handing over their brothers to the fury of the Renards, and they added that, without my assistance, they could not have Hoped for four hours of life, from the thorough knowledge they had of the evil hearts of the Puants. When our people, the folles avoines, Heard these words, they were On the point of forgetting what they had promised me, to keep silent on the Subject as I had requested them, and of asking me almost positively to Promise to allow them to take their revenge in the fort itself. I diverted their attention at the moment in order to induce them to think that the only thing to be done then was to try and win a victory over the Renards, Their cruelest Enemies, and I told them that I would afterwards think of the steps I would take with regard to the Puants. When day came the puants, who were somewhat reassured by what I had said to them, thought of nothing else but of fighting together with us Without any apprehension, for the Renards never ceased firing at us continually without interruption. On the third day, the Renards asked for speech with me and for a cessation of hostilities for a time, that they might represent to me what they had already said to me concerning my taking the part of the Puants, adding that If I would visit their fort it would afford them a real pleasure; that their young men would receive me with open arms, in the Hope that I would inspire all with good sense. But, although they seemed sincere, judging by the manner in which they have me to understand this, I nevertheless placed no reliance on what they said and considered that they wanted to set a trap for me in order to take me easily. But, as I did not wish them to see at Once that I fathomed their designs, I Contented myself with telling them that I would not consent to their proposal Without alarming my Children who would perhaps be afraid of losing their father through such a act of Folly; that, so far as I was concerned, (98) Were I Alone, I would willingly visit them without fear of death, all the more so that I had never feared it, and before they could kill me I should probably kill several of their number; but that as I Was at the head of a small band of the faithful Children of Onontiō, The father of all the Nations, I must be careful not to abandon them and that, far from doing so, I could assure them that they would always Find me at their head to encourage them; that I merely asked them to resist this paltry Attack, as I myself would, without fear. It is true, Monsieur, that in order to give the Renards reason to Dread that we might in the future inflict a disastrous blow on them (not knowing when we might be able to get away from there), I added that, as my flag Was planted in their Sight, it would never be taken down until my death, and that they might expect to see a similar one before long. I Considered that the famine from which we already suffered would continue; the Puants had suffered from it for nearly four or five days before I entered their fort, being reduced to eating bear skins and similar things, while I myself and all my people were obliged to follow their Example for five Days. About seven o'clock in the morning of the fourth day of our Fight, The Renards, seeing that we were determined to resist Them for a long while, asked me whether I had lost many of my Children; they said they Knew very well that they had seen several fall On the spot and that if I would tell them the Truth they would do the same in this Respect. I replied that, although I had no Account to render them in the matter, I was willing in order to Satisfy them, to let them know that I was no weaker on that day than on the first day of the fight; that the fact of their having killed five or six of my people, and having Wounded as many more would not Prevent my vanquishing them. In Fact I had lost one Frenchman who was killed On the spot, while two others were wounded, one dangerously; three folles avoines also had been killed and seven wounded. They admitted that fifteen had been killed and wounded on their Side; we Were sure of Seven whose heads we had cut off. I Know not, Monsieur, whether at that moment terror did not take possession of the hearts of that wicked Nation, (99) for from that time they secretly sent out of their forts, The old men, the women, and the Children that they might fly in advance of them, the warriors only remaining to face us until night, of whose protection it was natural for us to presume that they also took advantage to withdraw. On the following day, which was the fifth of our Combat, we observed Ravens alighting in their forts; this left us no doubt that they Were no longer there, and Induced us at the same time to go there without distrust. We found that they had fled somewhat precipitately, inasmuch as they had left behind them a portion of their effects and all their apakois (of which they generally make their Cabins). I at once resolved to retire to my post, Taking with me all the Puants, whom I left on the Way at la Baye, where they Established themselves in a fort.

Some time after my return, the folles avoines came to speak to me with a Collar and some branches of porcelain, saying: "My father, thou Knowest that we have always kept our mouths closed until now Regarding the cowardice and black perfidy displayed against us by the puants in Delivering our brothers to the Renards to be eaten, because thou hadst begged us not to take revenge for it while we Were in their country and in a position to do so; but today we ask thee as a favor to permit us to destroy them while they are here near us." I told them at once that I would willingly consent were it not that the Matter seemed to me to demand considerable attention and that, as I was About to start for Missilimakinac for the purpose of diligently informing their father Onontio of everything that Had happened from the day of my arrival among Them to that of my departure which would shortly take place, I begged them to defer the destruction of the Puant until their father onontio had himself decided it; and that by doing so they would convince me of their good dispositions and perfect obedience.

They also told me, Monsieur, that after the Blow they had struck At the Renards with the Outaouoys last Summer, (100) they had been invited by the latter to accompany them once more and that thus If they Came to ask the same thing of them this year they would go with pleasure and requested me to place myself at their head.


"Pierre-Paul Marin" — His full title was "sieur de La Malgue en de la Margue," although he was generally known as "Paul Marin." He was born in Montreal in 1692, the eldest child of Charles-Cesar Marin. He married in the year 1718. Marin is made chevalier de l'Ordre Militaire et Royal de Saint-Louis, capitaine d'infanterie et commandant général de l'arméede la Belle-Rivière. On June 5, 1722, with just one canoe, he joined joined the garrison at Fort La Point, Chagouamigon Bay, Lake Superior. Sometime prior to 1726, he had become commander of La Point. In July 1729 he borrowed a sum of money and formed a partnership with Louis Hamelin (from Fort Detroit) to open a concession for trading with the Menominee in Green Bay and Michilimackinac. The place was known as "Poste des Folles Avoine." The uncle of Marin's wife, Jean Guyon Dubuisson, was military Commander at la Baye. It was he who conceived the plan to annihilate the Fox tribe, to whom the French had been paying tolls to conduct trade through their lands with the peoples west of the Mississippi. The French with numerous allied tribes crushed the Fox in 1730, driving them from their lands about the Butte des Morts. In August and September of 1730, Marin led an expedition which attacked the Fox in the Illinois country. Later that year and into the winter of 1731, he attacked the Fox about 20 miles above the mouth of the Wisconsin River. It is this campaign in which the incidents here related occurred. Afterwards, in 1733, the Fox formed an alliance and counterattacked the French and their allies near Green Bay. Although the French commander, Nicolas Coulon, sieur de Villiers, was killed in the action, the Fox and Sauk were forced to flee west of the Mississippi. In 1737, through the good offices of the Potawatomi, Beauharnois made peace on behalf of France with the Fox and Sauk who were now situated east of the Mississippi. In 1738, Marin won a concession to trade with the Fox and Sauk, now at the mouth of the Wisconsin, from his headquarters at Green Bay. In that year he built a fort at Sny Magill Creek, near the site of an important Indian trail leading all the way to Iowa, in order to trade with the Fox, Sauk, and Hocągara tribes. In 1741 and 1742, Marin led delegations from the various tribes in the area (including the Hocągara) to try to establish a general peace, which was principally disturbed by warfare between the Dakota and the Ojibwe. After loosing his concession in 1743, he made a brief visit to France. When King George's War erupted in 1745, Marin was given command of a force of French militia and Indians number 240 men. They were sent to attack the British at Fort Anne in Nova Scotia. In 1749 he was given control over the Dakota trade. In 1751, while commandant of la Baye, his enterprise was able to bring in 700 packs of fur. His operations extended from western Pennsylvania to as far west as Hastings, Minnesota. In 1753, he established Fort Presque Isle (Lake Erie), Fort Le Bouef (Waterford, Pennsylvania), and Fort Duquesne (Pittsburg). In this expedition his force of 1600 men, attempting to secure the Ohio valley for France, suffered nearly 50% casualties. He was one of these casualties, dying at Fort de la Riviere au Boeuf in June, 1753. The clash a few months later between his successor and Major George Washington marked the beginning of the French and Indian War.

Charles, Marquis de Beauharnois

"Charles, marquis de Beauharnois" — Born in 1670 as Charles de la Boische. After a distinguished career in the French marines, he was elevated to the station of marquis in 1704. Louis XV appointed Beauharnois governor of New France in June of 1726. He was replaced in 1746 after the loss of Louisberg to the English. He died in Paris in 1749. The inset shows the painting by Tonnières now in Grenoble.

"Onontiō" — Jules Tailhan (S. J.) comments, "... the savages of Canada gave to all the governors of the colony the name of Ononthio (i. e., 'great mountain'), which was only the translation into their language of the name of Montmagny, the successor of Champlain; they also used this epithet to designate the King, but united with it the ajective 'Great' ('Great Ononthio')." Quoted in Emma Helen Blair, The Indian Tribes of the Upper Mississippi Valley and Region of the Great Lakes, 2 vols (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1996 [1911]) 1:200 nt. 146.

"the fort already built," — Reuben Thwaites comments: "De Lignery having destroyed the fort at Green Bay, which was not rebuilt until 1732, Marin appears to have repaired a French trading post at the Menominee Indian village on the west side of Green Bay, near Menominee River." (p. 89)

"la Baye" — this is Green Bay (in Wisconsin), also known as la Baye des Puants.

"arpent" — an old French measure of area. There were several arpents classified according to what they measured. There was an arpent of water and an arpent of forest, for instance. The arpent commonly used in Canada was the arpent of Paris which was equivalent to .84 acres. It is odd that a unit of area would be used for a straight distance, however.

"the island on which their former village was situated" — Thwaites remarks (p. 90 nt 1): "The island on which the Winnebago village had formerly stood, was that now known as Doty Island, and a part of Neenah, Wis. A small island below this, in Little Lake Butte des Morts, would appear to have been the site of the fort where the events described in this document occurred."

"Coulimy" — Thwaites says (93 nt 1), "This is probably a corruption of the text for Cacalin (Kakalin), the rapids of the Fox River, where Kaukauna now stands."

apakois — Thwaites states (99 nt 1), "The apakois were mats made of reeds, which most of the Wisconsin Indians used in making cabins, and for many other purposes." See Wisconsin Historical Collections, 17:366, 368, 369, 374.


The letter is in the Collection Moreau-St. Méry, v. 9, f. 11, fol. 288, in the archives of the Ministère des Colonies, Paris.

The English translation is taken from "1730: Marin Aids the Winnebago against the Foxes," in Reuben Gold Thwaites, ed., Collections of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin, Vol. 17, "The French Regime in Wisconsin — II, 1727-1748" (Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society, 1906) 88-100.

This letter is discussed in context by Publius V. Lawson, The Winnebago Tribe, Wisconsin Archeologist, 6, #3 (1907): 96-97; and Paul Radin, The Winnebago Tribe (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1990 [1923]) 10-11.